Posted by bigonesinc at 129.171.173.168 on November 16, 1999 at 21:23:06:
In Reply to: Loki & Bart's Fate & other q's & no-prize? SPOILER posted by blackadder on November 16, 1999 at 17:05:47:
Pardon me if I am wrong, however I am pretty sure that it was stated that after Loki and Bartleby Angles were forbid from drinking. I'm pretty sure that they are excluded from this. I could be wrong thou...
: First off, Kevin...Kick-ass movie! I really, really enjoyed it.
: I know this topic has threads in other posts, and in fact posted most of this as a thread, but it also has some questions i want to open to wider discussion.
: Overall, I was very impressed. However there was one part of the movie that made me uneasy. What happens to Bartleby & Loki?
: This was actually the only part in the movie that i wanted some more resolution on. As my playwriting teacher in college would say, "it's an eight foot bear".
: I can think of three possibilities:
: 1: (the one i hope for) God forgives Bartleby and Loki and sends them to heaven, not being a paradox because, of course, God is lifting the banishment. The only question with this is... what about all the corpses in the street, does God embrace them in some sort of pre-view rapture, taking them straight to heaven body & soul, or what?
: 2: (also discussed) Bartleby and Loki die as mortals, with mortal sins on their souls and go to hell. This disturbs me in a couple of ways. Loki, honestly wanted to do right.( And, I know there were numerous cuts to the movie... but how does Loki lose the wings?) Loki also shows remorse before he is murdered. Bartleby shows remorse in front of God, (it seems to me anyway). It has that kind of, "I'm sorry i did what i did, I just missed you so much" (which i thought has an interesting connection with what Bartleby was saying about people greeting each other at the airport...and I paraphrase, "it doesn't matter what they did, they're just so happy to see one another"... All of this though brings up an interesting problem:
: (I): Rufus says no one religion has found the right way
: (II): Since a sin in one religion might be a virtue in another... it is probable that a soul is judged not on the tenets of any particular religion, but on the innate goodness of the life he/she has lead; ie a charitable athiest goes to heaven, a corrupt evangelist burns.
: (III): God would show remorse and forgiveness for those who show remorse and forgiveness. If someone is truly penitent after the comission of a sin, wouldn't God have to forgive them?
: 3: God walks out, sees all the carnage. Bing! it's gone. the third possibility, God sets everything right. All the people are alive, back in their homes, Bartleby and Loki are back in WI serving their sentance, and the only humans who are any the wiser are Bethany Silent, Bob and Jay. This, the "time-altering plot device" a la Star Trek, might seem a little hokey at first, however, it (a) Neither Punishes nor Rewards Loki and Bartleby, who are only guilty of wanting to go home (b) Punishes Azreal by keeping him a demon in hell (c) still allows people the choice of whether or not to believe. Winged angels in front of a catholic church cutting people down, do not for free will make. Granted she could have easily gone out and sent the souls of all the people for judging, but i don't know I kind of like that ending.
: That's my two cents on that matter. now for two short questions:
: 1: Rufus sees Loki drunk and because of that, he says, "He's mortal now" but Loki was suppossed to have told God off in a drunken rant before losing his job. How does this happen? Could God have decided that angels are not just banned from imbibing, but physically unable to imbibe (like, a gag reflex) hence Metaron's spitting. (Does this win me a No-Prize?) ;)
: 2:When Bartleby and Loki become human, by losing their wings, and gaining a concience... do the unsexed angels...ah... well... grow a pair?
: looking forward to hearing from y'all