Re: Loki & Bart's Fate & other q's SPOILER

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: : First off, Kevin...Kick-ass movie! I really, really enjoyed it. : I second that! Saw it three times this weekend, first time I just let myself be carried along by the story... second time was for actual plot analysis... third time was to pick up the little background stuff I might have missed. Great flick, Kevin! I hope there will be an *uncut* VHS release, if the rumours about the extensive trimming are true. : : What happens to Bartleby & Loki? : : I can think of three possibilities: : : 1: God forgives Bartleby and Loki and sends them to heaven : Bartleby and Loki are going to have to be separate judgements, of course. : But another thornier issue remains... are angels subject to the same restrictions as mankind? : LOKI: : Loki has killed at least 7 people based on his own interpretation of God's desires and *without* divine mandate to do so. He shows no repentance for these killings (being, as Bartleby calls him, a 'very simple creature'). IF angels are held to the same (or similar)standards as mortals, then Loki is guilty of multiple counts of murder. IF angels are covered by their own special code then Loki must be punished under angelic law for his killing spree, but in his (admittedly brief) mortal life appears mostly blameless. : PERSONAL CALL: Loki goes to Hell as a mortal, for despite his last-minute attempts to stop Bartleby he has shown no remorse for his earlier vigilante-justice killings, which is tantamount to abrogating unto oneself the authority of God. : BARTLEBY: : Bartleby does have the tearful apology at the end, but it is unclear exactly how much of his behaviour he is apologizing for. He has slain numerous individuals without much of *ANY* justification, directly contradicted the Will of God, and attempted to willfully negate all of existence. The Morningstar (by comparison) wasn't as fractious by half. I'll invoke the same caveats regarding angelic vs human restrictions as with Loki. : PERSONAL CALL: Giving Bartleby the benefit of the doubt (and estimating the effect of being in direct contact with the Divine Presence as being a pretty good force for contrition) I would guess that Bartleby (despite his sin being technically greater than Lucifer's was) in expressing true contrition is forgiven and (after being slain personally by God - what's a movie without at least ONE good smiting?) goes to Heaven as a mortal spirit (or Purgatory, if we're being dreadfully Catholic about the whole thing). : This seems, on the surface, to be a *terribly* unfair solution... but is unfortunately doctrinarily sound (assuming the belief to take precedence over the good idea in this case). Yes, God *could* forgive them both and let them into Heaven as angels, but that pretty much removes the point of *having* a law. : : The only question with this is... what about all the corpses in the : : street, does God embrace them in some sort of pre-view rapture, taking : : them straight to heaven body & soul, or what? : I would assume that they were disposed of according to the sin on their souls at the time of death. There is the theory that God hit the RESET button on the universe, but that kind of (terribly literal) Deus ex machina ending I find terribly unsatisfying. It would negate the entire tale. Please note also that Bethany is still dead post-cleanup until personally resurrected. Persoanlly, I think God merely tidied up the area to suit Her personal aesthetic sensibilities (doing cartwheels among the corpses is an activity more up Krishna's alley than Yahweh's.) : : How does Loki lose the wings? : I assumed Bartleby cut 'em off for him with that little knife he had. : : : (a) Neither Punishes nor Rewards Loki and Bartleby, who are only guilty : : of wanting to go home : I think they're guilty of a *little* more than just *homesickness* : : (b) Punishes Azreal by keeping him a demon in hell : Nah. Though I wonder if he didn't end up getting what he wanted anyway, seeing as demons cannot change form and his demon form was killed. Is there a spirit form for demons? Who knows, but I'd bet that Azrael is neither in Hell nor in Heaven, but that he simply *isn't*. : : (c) still allows people the choice of whether or not to believe. Winged : : angels in front of a catholic church cutting people down, do not for : : free will make. : I've never bought the 'proof denies Free Will' argument. That type of logic seems to indict God for any miracles She performs. Free Will is not merely the freedom to believe or not believe, its the freedom to act in accordance with your own desires, despite God's wishes. Now you can argue that that isn't much of a choice when one considers the eternal pleasure/punishment carrot-and-stick afterlife, but though belief in that system can affect one's behaviour it by no means negates one's Free Will. The Almighty can stroll down the Avenue of the Americas tossing thunderbolts and hurling invectives in Hebrew at passersby without negating the Free Will of anyone at all. : : Granted she could have easily gone out and sent the souls of all the : : people for judging, but i don't know I kind of like that ending. : Yes, but then again the faith isn't built on what people would *like* to be true. ;) : : Rufus sees Loki drunk and because of that, he says, "He's mortal now" : : but Loki was suppossed to have told God off in a drunken rant before : : losing his job. How does this happen? : The prohibition against angelic tippling came about *as a result* of Loki's binge, so there's no conflict there. : : Could God have decided that angels are not just banned from imbibing, : : but physically unable to imbibe (like, a gag reflex) hence Metaron's : : spitting : I assume that this *IS* the case, as otherwise there is little to no reason for Bartleby and Loki not to be drinking 24/7. They're already banished to Earth for all time. What is the Almighty going to do, send them to Hell for *drinking*? If they *can't* swallow alcohol it would explain why neither of them *do* drink (though the scene with Bartleby and Bethany on the train is a tad vague, I assume that cut footage shows Bartleby faking drinking just as Loki fakes toking on the joint Jay passes him.) : : When Bartleby and Loki become human, by losing their wings, and gaining : : a concience... do the unsexed angels...ah... well... grow a pair? : One would assume they would have to, since there must be a transformation to provide them with at least an alimentary system. Mortal Loki would have had to pee eventually. I'm surprised with all the dick jokes that they never covered that. ;) : I wonder about Bartleby's 'conscience' comment though, since Metatron certainly seems to have one, seeing as he felt terrible about having to tell 12-year old Jesus about his true nature. I wouldn't really take anything Bartleby or Loki say as 'gospel truth' (pardon the pun) as far as the movie goes. : Also, I just *love* how much Mooby's statue looks like Mickey Mouse. :) : Again, Kevin and the whole ViewAskew crew... congrats on a job very well done! : - Still Chasing Amy : c-gillen@sjca.edu

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