Hummmm......

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: : Okay, since I obviously would rather analyze a damn movie than do anything else constructive today, this is my final answer, Regis. Hopefully this will help to settle some of the endless speculation about Bartleby & Loki's plan and its feasibility and/or apparent contradictions in "Dogma". : : According to what I've gathered, there are several requirements one must have met in order to receive a plenary indulgence from Mother Church. First, one must have confessed one's sins, received the Eucharist, and prayed for the pope; if these conditions aren't met the plenary indulgence becomes a partial one. In "Dogma", where Carlin's character refers to the archway as bestowing plenary indulgences, those indulgences would only be valid *after* people had been in the Church and done all the proper preparations. When they walked out, they'd have had all the punishments for their sins removed. Obviously, Bartleby & Loki didn't do any of those things and didn't seem like they were planning on it. : : The most important requirement for a plenary indulgence is that any desire to sin be absent in the recipient's soul at the moment the indulgence is bestowed. Obviously, B&L are far from meeting this one as their whole plan revolved around defying God's will. : : So...even if Bartleby & Loki had made it through the archway before anybody stopped them, according to Catholic dogma (which if we're going by the rules of the movie or the dogma itself, holds true in heaven as well as on earth) their plan wouldn't have worked and they would have died as humans with a great deal of sin-debt on their souls. So once and for all, I think we can safely say the universe in "Dogma" was never in danger and all the events that occured were within God's design. : : However, this doesn't necessarily preclude the idea that Bartleby & Loki received redemption in the end, since... : : *** : : PLENARY INDULGENCE EXCEPTION TO THE THREE CONSTANTS. : : (Verbatim recitation of the grant follows:) : : "To the faithful in danger of death, who cannot be assisted by a priest to bring them the sacraments and impart the Apostolic Blessing with its plenary indulgence (see can. 468, Sec.2 of Code of Canon Law), Holy Mother Church nevertheless grants a plenary indulgence to be acquired at the point of death, provided they are properly disposed and have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime. The use of a crucifix or a cross to gain this indulgence is praiseworthy. "The condition: 'provided they have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime' supplies in such cases for the three usual conditions required for the gaining of a plenary indulgence. "The plenary indulgence at the point of death can be acquired by the faithful, even if they have already obtained another plenary indulgence on the same day." : : *** : : So, if I understand this correctly and we assume Bartleby & Loki prayed at some point in their long lives (which is reasonable to believe), and assuming that their faith was restored and their desire to sin absent at the moment of their deaths (which in Loki's case is definitely true since he'd turned against Bartleby's plan), both of them were redeemed at the same time they died. : : That's my interpretation from here on out. You can read more about indulgences at (sorry I don't know how to do links here): : : http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/org/newman/Pages/indulgences.html : : Or if you're an authority-worshipping type of person you can get the official party line from the Catholic Church in the Enchiridon (I think that's a fancy way to say "book") of Indulgences: : : http://www.catholic.org/prayer/indulgw.html : : Enjoy, and feel free to chip away at my logic, but I think I'm on to something here. : : -- Isis : : Damn...now I actually have to go take care of business. : : .....you got about as much free time as Darth Dobbin. It's just a movie!!!! : :ghostmann : Been while since anyone mentioned Chocodiles!!!!

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