Posted by thebiggerboat at 203.166.239.115 on November 06, 2000 at 08:43:50:
In Reply to: Question about DOGMA... posted by (Patrick) on November 06, 2000 at 07:29:15:
The answer is this...Azrael was cast from heaven and became a demon and, as was said in the movie, demons can't trans-subtantiate (spelling??) into human form. This bit is essential as you needed to be human to die and thus go to heaven and prove god fallible. Bartleby and Loki weren't made demons and as angels (still) they could trans to human form, get they're sins negated thru the doorway, die (not commiting suicide though), go to heaven and prove god fallible and undo existance....Azrael couldn't do it 'cause he couldn't trans' to human form.
: I suppose this question is primarily directed to Mr. Smith, since he wrote the movie, but anyone can jump in and offer an explanation or opinion assuming they utilize proper grammar and don't misspell every third word. I also have to grant the caveat that I only saw DOGMA once, during the initial theatrical run in the US about a year ago, so my memory on some of the details may be suspect. Anywho. I was wondering a bit about Azrael.
: FINAL SPOILER ALERT! Don't read any further if you haven't seen this movie.
: Azrael was cast out of Heaven, correct? If not as an actual soldier of Lucifer during the War of Rebellion, then at least as one of the dithering opportunists who chose neither side or failed to fight for God with sufficient enthusiasm and got kicked out as well. Or maybe there was some other altercation with the Big Man not mentioned in the script, I don't know. But he's definitely damned. Soooo....if he's just as damned as Loki and Bartleby, then why, once he has the mortal incarnation of God under his thumb, doesn't he just enter the church, invoke the indulgence, and undo Creation all by himself? Boom, done, no time for the Heavenly Host to intervene. It's all over.
: Is there a reason given for his risky involvement of the other two fallen angels as dupes? I'm supposing the answer (if any is forthcoming, assuming someone reads this message) will be one of the following:
: 1) "Without his plan there's no movie, dumbass." Admittedly true. But it doesn't really explain things.
: 2) "Azrael has a complex and thoroughly perverse personality and he just can't help but employ deception and trickery in executing this plan." Hmm....I suppose you could argue this, but Azrael comes across as being so wretchedly miserable and so wanting to be annihilated from existence that I doubt he would be hindered by such a trait, if indeed he possesses it. It's not like he's the Riddler, compelled against reason to fire skywriting Polaris missiles into the air which give away his crimes before they happen. I don't see why he would leave anything to chance.
: 3) "Azrael isn't an angel, he's a muse, or a former muse, or something, and it wouldn't work if he did it." Someone (no one involved with the making of this movie, of course....just some guy, it's not important) suggested this reason to me, and it does sort of explain why the concept of "muses" is even introduced into the cosmology of the story in the first place, as a way of differentiating between Azrael and Loki & Bartleby and explaining why he would need them. But the semantical distinction doesn't convince me either - muse, angel, whatever, he was in Hell, he's damned. His entering the church should be just as effective as Loki or Bartleby entering the church.
: So...did I miss something? Like I said, my memory of the movie is somewhat hazy, so if there's some glaringly obvious explanation contained within the movie which makes me look like an utter fool, please direct me towards it posthaste. Any comments from anyone at View Askew would be appreciated. Thanks.