I'm gonna get fired, too

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: But who cares. I love this shit. : Here's my addition to discussion for the day. First: p.j. made an excellent point in that even fi they did become repentant in human form, they may have thought God wouldn't forgive them! I mean, God's the one who threw them out. If someone threw me out of their house, and wouldn't talk to me even though I kept trying to talk to them (which Bartleby alluded to in his talk with Bethany on the train) I would think they hadn't forgiven me, either. : ON THE TRAIN: : "How about you? When did you lose your faith? : BARTLEBY : Me? Years ago. One day, God just stopped listening. I kept talking, but I got the distinct impression that He wasn't listening anymore." : Also, in Bartleby's speech to Loki, after falling off the train, he certainly does state that he does not feel remorse for his actions, only anger.... : : BARTLEBY : "In the beginning, it was just us and Him. Angels and God. And then He created the humans. And He gave them more than He ever : gave us. Our's was designed to be a life of servitude and worship - adoration. But He gave the humans more - He gave them a : choice. They can choose to ignore God, choose to acknowledge Him. All this time we've been down here, everyday I felt the : absence of the Divine presence. And it pained me... as I'm sure it must have pained you sometimes, even though you'd gloss over it : with jokes. But we feel his absence, and why? Because of the way He made us -as servants. Had we been given free will, we could : ignore the pain... like them. : LOKI : You know - maybe you should take a nap or something. : BARTLEBY : Loki, don't you get it? It's the humans - it's always the humans. They were given paradise; they threw it away. They were given this : planet; they destroyed it. They were favored best among all His endeavors; and some of them don't even believe He exists. Their : ego-mania corroded Hell and made it dark and crimson. : (looks at Loki) : I asked you to lay down your sword years ago - why? : Because I felt sorry for them. And where did it get us? : Thrown out. " : I think there's the argument that they were not going to ask for forgiveness. : : : And I mean that as the highest form of flattery! : : Thank you! Sweet. I've ordered the FINAL script but I think it will take a few days to arrive so we'll have to rely on the old one for reference until then! (So sorry, Silent Slob... hope this doesn't put you out too much!) : : : In past threads, a lot of people theorized that this was because Bartleby and Loki weren't really sorry for what they had done and they wanted a way back into heaven WITHOUT having to be penitent. One problem with this theory was that there's not a lot of dialogue in the flick to back that up. : : But do you think that's true? I mean, you're right... they don't actually SAY that... but I think it's generally hinted at that they want to go back to Heaven and that they don't feel that what they did was wrong. I'm going to read the final draft thoroughly and see if I see any examples of this! : : : : :The closest thing I can thing of is one of Bartleby's lines that Bethany27 pointed out: The last bit ("moreso than the sacrament of penance could ever offer") I think is key. Bartelby seems intrigued by the fact that plenary indulgence is a much more powerful means of soul-purifying than the act of penance. Why would he care about that? I can think of 2 possible reasons. : : I think you have a good point... they did make an issue out of saying that it was a bigger tool of forgiveness than penance. Maybe that's it. : : KEVIN WHERE ARE YOU?!!!!! : : : #1. They really wanted to get back into Heaven without asking for forgiveness and they believed that plenary indulgance was SO powerful that it could absolve them without them actually being sorry. : : : OR : : : #2. They were so terrified of God's wrath and the possibility of being sent to Hell, they never wanted to become human and ask for forgiveness because they thought it wouldn't be enough. They thought that even after they went through the sacrament of penance that God still could decide to block their entrance into Heaven. SO, once they found out about plenary indulgance, Bartelby and Loki assumed that "Hey, this is like penance times 1000" and that such an extreme act of absolution could not be rejected by the powers that be. : : Could be!!! Both are totally possible. I have no idea which is right! Just a hunch that they weren't sorry. They never seemed sorry or implied that they'd take back their decision if they could... although they did go on a killing spree to get back into God's good graces... maybe that's the key to proving that they WERE sorry. They were willing to go back (Loki particularly) and do the deeds of God that they refused to do years ago. Hmmmmm! : : Ok, I'm going to get fired soon... you guys (with a few notable exceptions!) are a very interesting distraction! : : xo Bethany

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