Posted by Isis at d7b243.dialup.cornell.edu on May 16, 2000 at 12:40:39:
In Reply to: Bartleby's Shaky Analogy... posted by Lucifer Lyndon Razoodock on May 16, 2000 at 01:56:28:
: ...as if "being dumped" by one's husband (even over an issue as sensitive as child-bearing) were any comparison to the torment that Bartleby and Loki have endured.
Yes, but Bartleby & Loki are immortal beings whose understanding of pain is different from that of humans; so while a human anxiety such as the end of a marriage may seem petty in comparison to divine excommunication, keep in mind ANY human experience would seem similarly insignificant to an angel. Bartleby could still relate on some level to the effect that the dumping had on Bethany.
: After all, there were other "fish" for Bethany (after all, not every man wants his girlfriend/fiance/wife to bear his child) to get with...whereas Bartleby's snubbing offered no alternative options.
Well, he could have always thrown in his chips with Lucifer. But, and I think this is fairly important to the plot and to whatever interpretation you put on the ending, he didn't.
: He, essentially, represents a fellow who has been cast-aside by the very Being of existence, itself...
: Even if humanity were to "fall-in" for Judgement, those two would still have to huddle (so to speak) outside the Pearly Gates for all eternity, correct?
Correct, assuming Metatron has no reason to lie (and there is always the possibility that he does) and that God never changes Her mind (and there is always the possibility that She does).
: Now, for a coupla' questions:
: --Why weren't these cats drop-shipped to Hell in the first place? It's quite clear that they were potentially hell-bound from the start, were they not?
That's quite a good question, actually. I'd say they were indeed potentially hell-bound, but their banishment to Wisconsin rather than eternal fire would indicate that they were also being given an opportunity to work their way back into God's favor, eventually.
: Did God consider a pre-continental Wisconsin to be a lenient move?
The Old Testament God probably did. God as written in Dogma seems to change over time, as Bartleby & Loki discuss on the bus and Metatron makes reference to, and we know that God abandons the Angel of Death thing which indicates a change in God's style of justice and punishment. So back when God was supposed to be the big ass-kicker, He probably thought of it as an act of kindness.
: If so, why then did Bartleby & Loki forget this?
: Was it because they'd become so desensitized to God's calling, that they lost touch with The Divine?
I don't know that they forgot it, just that they never fully recognized it. But it would make sense if once out of God's presence the angels began to lose their capacity to understand God's will.
: Even when sent the missive by Azrael, did they not think that damnation was almost certain?
You know, Loki says right in the beginning something like "Once we get back in, I'm sure He'll just forgive and forget." I think that at least in the not-so-bright Loki's case, it didn't go any deeper than that. He was assuming throughout the flick, even while mowing down Mooby-makers, that if they could prove their good intentions to God in some way that they'd be sure to get back in Her grace. Bartleby's reasons may have been more complex, and possibly not that far from Azrael's; he was angry enough at God that he would have risked damnation.
: Within the context used, "free will" seems to be the choice as to whether or not one is privvy to God's existence...hence, banished-angels suffer the worst, because they can not forget God or Heaven...
: Okay, if Bartleby and Loki possessed enough free-will to defy God's Own Will...to reenter Heaven...could they not have wiped their own memories clean...
I don't think free will necessarily includes the ability to erase one's own memory, although I'd say it does include the ability to interpret past events in various ways. And I've never heard of angels being able to erase their memories, either.
: ...or at the very least, could they not have wrenched off their own wings (or tore them off one another) a lot earlier on to attain humanity (which they seem to envy...deadly a sin as envy is...)?
They could have, but up until that point they figured quite righteously that wings are a pretty nifty thing to have in a pinch. And before Bartleby's whole thing about free will the angels seem to look down upon humanity as ignorant bumpkins, unless they're in the act of getting off planes or waiting for their loved ones to get off a plane.
: Okay, and if they achieved mortality and died, they might've been ripe for the Inferno...but might they not also have stood a chance at re-earning their way back into Heaven as human souls?
I'd say so. But what I really want to know is...besides are you gonna go my way...when God walks into the middle of the street at the end of the movie and makes all the carnage disappear, where do all of the people go? Are they restored to life or sent to heaven/hell? And where does the dead, transubstantiated Loki go? He's human and mortal, yet his sins were never cleansed before Bartleby gave him the old shiv in the ribs deal. And if Loki the human dies with an immortal's worth of 6000 years of genocidal mass murder and sin what happens to him? If God doesn't forgive him and he goes to hell, does he become the top demon there? After all, Lucifer was only the angel of light prior to his banishment, not the angel of death. Loki's sins if weighed against a human rather than an agent of the divine are quite considerable.
-- Isis
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