Posted by Isis at d3197.dialup.cornell.edu on June 20, 2000 at 11:06:50:
In Reply to: Oops posted by Chrees on June 19, 2000 at 19:09:20:
By the way, guys, if you're reading this, thanks for all the comments & thoughts, they were muchly appreciated. The free will thing continues to intrigue me; I'm not quite sure I can wrap my head around the concept. From your definitions (and my own) it seems to be the case that free will is the ability to act against instinct, that being the thing that separates humans from animals or any other being. Free will refers to reason or rationality, then.
It also seems to imply that all evil or non-Godly events that occur in the universe under God's omnipotent eye must be created by human hands, if only humans have free will.
So, an entirely new dilemma. First of all, how can we be sure that what humans feel is rational really is so? The realm of science, the distilled study of human knowledge, is itself riddled with superstitions, unexplainable phenomenons and strange behavior. It is not rational in any sense to behave in ways that will lead to death and destruction, yet humans and groups of humans have been doing so since civilization arose. Perhaps our instincts have simply become so complex that we do not classify them as such anymore. Humans behave in largely predictable ways, although there is always deviance from those patterns.
Secondly, animals, though not theologically imbued with free will, do not always behave predictably. Quite often they've been known to go against instinct, especially domesticated animals.
Third, if all beings/forces without free will are performing the will of God, what about this hypothetical situation...a hurricane arises and wipes out an entire village of peaceful Christ-worshipping vegans, half of whom are children, all of whom are relatively innocent. Is the hurricane doing God's will? It has no control over its own actions.
Also, relating back to my original problem, while humans DO have the ability to reason, including the ability to profess belief or disbelief in God, they also have the ability to behave in a way that contradicts their rational beliefs. We are entirely capable of conceiving of and believing in a God of universal love and killing people in that God's name. If free will is a higher ability shared only by humans and God, from whence comes the difference in quality between our free wills? How is it that God is seen to be making only perfect decisions with his free will whereas among humans the idea of free will is seen mostly as a way to explain all of our fuck-ups?
And I am still totally confused as to the use of free will in "Dogma".
: I think it has more to do with man having to except God's existence on faith, while angels don't have to--they have seen him (or so it is implied), and therefore they know he exists. I didn't see this as a free-will issue for angels (but could be wrong).
Maybe there is some seperation in Bartleby's rant that I'm not picking up on, but it seems pretty clear that he says, in so many words, God favors humans more because they have free will, He gave them a choice to believe in him or not. True, they've seen him, but arguably one could say many humans saw God in the form of Jesus back in Ben Hur's day, and many were still unconvinced. If humans are able to disbelieve their eyes, why not angels?
And if the angels, Bartleby & Loki and Lucifer for that matter, KNOW God exists, yet still act in defiance of His will, doesn't that mean they have wills even more independent than ours?
I still think the basic idea of free will destroys any possibility of an omnipotent deity, but I've driven you guys crazy enough for one day, and I know I've driven myself farther insane than necessary. But chew on what's above if you're still interested. The idea of will where it is used in a pagan context is similar in a way yet almost opposite to the Christian theological ideas of free will; I'm simply, obsessively fascinated at the moment by the contrast. So, all apologies for excessive blathering.
-- Isis