Posted by Chrees at 204.155.16.72 on June 20, 2000 at 11:53:14:
In Reply to: Yeah, I still don't get the whole Bartleby thing.. posted by Isis on June 20, 2000 at 11:06:50:
: Maybe there is some seperation in Bartleby's rant that I'm not picking up on, but it seems pretty clear that he says, in so many words, God favors humans more because they have free will, He gave them a choice to believe in him or not. True, they've seen him, but arguably one could say many humans saw God in the form of Jesus back in Ben Hur's day, and many were still unconvinced. If humans are able to disbelieve their eyes, why not angels?
Precisely! Humans had to accept in their minds whether or not Jesus was the son of God. They still had not seen God (and I don't want to be a c%&t rag and bring up the Trinity) in the same manner that the angels had. Bartleby assuming that God favors humans is consistent with much religious doctrine (which, not surprisingly, is compiled by humans *lol*).
: And if the angels, Bartleby & Loki and Lucifer for that matter, KNOW God exists, yet still act in defiance of His will, doesn't that mean they have wills even more independent than ours?
Not quite. It just means that they have some manner of free will also. Don't sweat it. The concept of free will has bothered MANY people. Why else do you have so many works on the subject? Some writers simplistically explain the difference between Lucifer and humans as a parental situation we could understand (I'm not saying it's perfect, but I think it delineates the difference of your last point above). There's a difference between a father telling his son or daughter to do something directly...to their face...and sending an emissary to do it. (And this doesn't even begin to address having faith and believing, but still not behaving as directed...the whole thing is a quagmire). I highly recommend some of the works that were quoted in the thread above (especially Aquinas) for some of the religious approaches to this. Believe me...the types of questions you are asking have been asked many times before. (Not trying to belittle your questions in the least...I just mean that people have wrestled with the subject for a long time and they didn't have such a humorous approach as we now enjoy!)