Re: The problems of "meta" fiction...

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: : : : I thought that Kevin's references where "pop" references. Meaning that they are imbedded in todays culture through many means and have become standard place, making them enjoyable to a vast audience. : : "Pop" does not mean illiterate. (BYW- It might be a simple typo on your paart, & I know it is petty of me to do so, but I feel the need to point out that it is "were," not "where." Like GI JOE says, now you know. And knowing is half the battle.) : It is aa typo. It isn't however, petty to point out. -5 for me. : Illiterate means can't read, not hasn't yet read. This could invoke a debate of chicken and egg nature. Is a infant, who yet to has the capacity to read, illiterate? : : : : Apparently it isn't, as I have never read it. : : Look, you may not have **read** it, but just because you may not have read Watership Down, or Lord of the Flies, or Animal Farm or whatever does not mean that you should never have **heard** of them. : Huh? I understand the literal nature of this but how does hearing of "Wind in the Willows" invoke my memory of Mr. Toads Wild Ride, having not read it? : : Now that you mention it I have heard of aformentioned characters thanks to the cartoon however. (said cartoons' character development sucked so naturally I dismissed it from memory as a poorly retould fable.) : : Yeah. I always judge literature by how good or poor of a cartoon it translates into. And I am quick to "dismiss" work based on this criterion as well. Like Ghraham Chapman said to the Black Knight in HOLY GRAIL: "You make me sad." : Never said I judged the literature by the cartoon, just didn't like the re-telling. Like Mr. T. said in the 80's. "I pity the fool, drink yo milk." : : : : : : : : : Hmmm, A man who crys for those who are not of his background and has a love of fairy tales.... you must be English? : : No. You can be from America and have read books. It's a classic, fer chrissakes. All I'm saying is that ONLY being aware of comic books, cartoons, and "pop" culture is like living off a diet of Cheetos and french fries. Don't get me wrong- There is plenty of room in my world for Cheetos and french fries, friend. Probably too much room. But every now and again, it's nice to have a civilized meal, with the proper utensils and all, if I may carry the analogy to its extreme. : : I **do** find it horribly upsetting that you assume anyone who knows about "fairy tales" or literature or any such thing to be British. Ours is the country of Walt Whitman, of Mark Twain, of Faulkner, as well as the nation of Kirby and Lee. I'm just saying that in order to apreciate any one of these, you don't have to abandon the others. : This was simple sarcasm. A joke at the expense of cultures, nothing more. Don't forget Thoreou (sp) and Kerouac, or Rand. : : I think this whole "debate" speaks to a larger issue with writers like Kevin, or Niel Gaimen, or any other "post modern" talented writer who pays "homage" to other works, or echoes themes of "classical" nature.. The "meta" reference is made with an assumption of shared knowledge. When folks only come in at their particular link in the chain, bizarre confusion arises. : Only Kevin can answer whether I am confused by his reference. Since the reference is in regards to a planned trip to Disney*.* I think this isn't a line about Wind in the Willows, in fact I think Kevin may have entered the chain other than the start. : : I will grant you that I may just be engaged in a bout of Asshole-ery. Maybe the strength of such works are that they can exist, and be enjoyed, on a bunch of levels; and I'm just railing about some piece of writing that **was** important and magical to me as a kid, assuming it should be so for everyone else. : : Probably not, though. : And I might be a sarcatic Fuck that likes to explore Dick and Fart jokes a little too much.(Sarcasim is so hard in print) Who was it that said "True greatness is measured by how many people you piss off"? It doesn't upset me that something so simple as a question about the origin of a reference invokes this much heat, I think it is great. Don't think your asshole-ery for it. : Now lets get back to the Dick and Fart jokes. Oh and COCK, I almost didn't get it in this one. : : Anyway, be well, and it might not hurt you to pick up a copy of the book. It really is wonderful, even now. : What is your profession? I won't say shit about it, I just wonder cause your level of thought process suggests your A. older than most on this board. and B. Have a similar (to myself) liking of heaier discussions.

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