The meaning of free will & muses in "Dogma"?

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Posted by Isis at d5107.dialup.cornell.edu on June 19, 2000 at 18:36:13:

Forgive me for pushing you guys beyond the bounds of what the movie itself covers, but I don't have a Bible on me at the moment and figure this crowd is bound to have some insight. Let me just get to the point...

I believe I've previously mentioned the dilemma of free will as used in "Dogma", but don't think I ever got a satisfactory answer, so briefly...what exactly does free will mean in a strictly Christian theological context? I'm familiar with the philosophical sense of free will (basically, the ability to make decisions independently of an omnipotent being) and always assumed they were one and the same. However, upon viewing "Dogma" for the who-cares-how-manyth time, I'm still flummoxed by Bartleby's breakdown.

He describes free will as the ability to choose whether or not to acknowledge God's existence, and implies that the angels don't have this ability. Now, this seems to indicate that free will specifically refers to the ability to believe or disbelieve in God. It also confuses the issue of independent decision making, since Bartleby & Loki could have never angered God by going against God's will if they had no seperate autonomous will. Is there more to the meaning of free will than I'm aware of?

Also, I can't for the life of me remember -- been ages since I read the Old Testament and all my books are in storage -- didn't Lucifer get kicked out of heaven for protesting God's creation of beings with free will?

One more quick thing...in "Dogma" Serendipity talks to Azrael about them choosing sides in Lucifer's war on heaven, but why would the muses even be around at a point when no humans existed for them to inspire? Or is a muse just a refined type of angel within the "Dogma" pantheon (which I know is an inappropriate word to use, but I can't think of the right one), their particular inspirational qualities only used to full effect after humans were created?

I know it's just a movie and not an explanation of the entire realm of Catholic theology or even necessarily a springboard to such, but I'm hoping some of you wise ones out there can help me out...don't hurt me, at least.

-- Isis
Interrupted by two shaky crackheads with a lawnmower at the door.

Follow Ups:

Gettin' my scholarly stride on... Darth Dobbin 20:54:22 6/19/00 (0)
The definition of Free Will and a question... thx3188 19:44:31 6/19/00 (2)
- Re: The definition of Free Will and a question... Chrees 19:55:44 6/19/00 (1)
  - Re: I'll answer that one for you Sam Stan 21:40:57 6/19/00 (0)
A few musings... Chrees 18:57:27 6/19/00 (3)
- Oops Chrees 19:09:20 6/19/00 (2)
  - Yeah, I still don't get the whole Bartleby thing.. Isis 11:06:50 6/20/00 (1)
    - Re: Yeah, I still don't get the whole Bartleby thing.. Chrees 11:53:14 6/20/00 (0)

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: Forgive me for pushing you guys beyond the bounds of what the movie itself covers, but I don't have a Bible on me at the moment and figure this crowd is bound to have some insight. Let me just get to the point... : I believe I've previously mentioned the dilemma of free will as used in "Dogma", but don't think I ever got a satisfactory answer, so briefly...what exactly does free will mean in a strictly Christian theological context? I'm familiar with the philosophical sense of free will (basically, the ability to make decisions independently of an omnipotent being) and always assumed they were one and the same. However, upon viewing "Dogma" for the who-cares-how-manyth time, I'm still flummoxed by Bartleby's breakdown. : He describes free will as the ability to choose whether or not to acknowledge God's existence, and implies that the angels don't have this ability. Now, this seems to indicate that free will specifically refers to the ability to believe or disbelieve in God. It also confuses the issue of independent decision making, since Bartleby & Loki could have never angered God by going against God's will if they had no seperate autonomous will. Is there more to the meaning of free will than I'm aware of? : Also, I can't for the life of me remember -- been ages since I read the Old Testament and all my books are in storage -- didn't Lucifer get kicked out of heaven for protesting God's creation of beings with free will? : One more quick thing...in "Dogma" Serendipity talks to Azrael about them choosing sides in Lucifer's war on heaven, but why would the muses even be around at a point when no humans existed for them to inspire? Or is a muse just a refined type of angel within the "Dogma" pantheon (which I know is an inappropriate word to use, but I can't think of the right one), their particular inspirational qualities only used to full effect after humans were created? : I know it's just a movie and not an explanation of the entire realm of Catholic theology or even necessarily a springboard to such, but I'm hoping some of you wise ones out there can help me out...don't hurt me, at least. : -- Isis : Interrupted by two shaky crackheads with a lawnmower at the door.

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