Posted by Pseudo at spider-mtc-ta053.proxy.aol.com on June 21, 2001 at 14:43:35:
: Then there's Watchmen by Alan Moore, and Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller, which I always thought was solid, but very overrated.
: WHAT?!?!?!?!?!!
I said DKR was overrated, not WATCHMEN. I love WATCHMEN, and think it's the greatest maxi-series of all-time. If you notice the commas, I said "and Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller, which I always thought was solid, but very overrated." Perhaps I should have put a period or semi-colon after "Then there's Watchmen by Alan Moore." It would have made things easier to understand, probably. The "solid, but very overrated" statement applied ONLY to DKR, NOT WATCHMEN.
: First off, view DARK KNIGHT in a historical perspective. It was the very first of it's kind. (I know, Eisner was doing SPIRIT long before, but still..) First of it's kind to take an established character, and expand the boundaries of storytelling with that character, and play with his essential "givens" in a way that was at once artistic and mindful of the source material, but not beholden unto it. It was the very first "serious work" of the superheroic genre. And Miller's style has never been better before or since.
Yeah, it was one of the very first Elseworlds-type takes on a mainstream character. Miller introduced the truly dark nature of Batman, separating him from the campy, fun-loving Batman of old. This solidified his place as DC's brooding, cynical, obsessive-compulsive wager of war on crime. BUT...in regards to many Batman fans, this is their Bible or Torah, if you will, in regards to the Batman mythos. Many fail to comprehend that DARK KNIGHT RETURNS wasn't the ONLY good Batman story ever told. 15 years later, it's still regarded as the be-all, end-all of Batman. And we've still got DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN on it's way, due in the fourth quarter of this year. I liked the story...but I just felt it was pretty average. I actually like his work on Daredevil and Sin City much more, to be honest.
: And you think WATCHMEN is over-rated? That I can't even speak to intelligently.Again, if DARK KNIGHT opened the door to the format,then WATCHMEN not only went through the door, but blew off it's hinges. It is perhaps the single greatest standalone work in the Superhero genre. Still. Bar none. The themes, characterizations, "meta-story" elements and allegories to the whole world of comics itself, and variations on the archetypes of the Superhero genre were, and still are, astonishing.
Well, this is all pretty invalid, since I never said Watchmen was overrated. You miscontrued my words, but that's all right, it's my fault. I liked how this was pretty much the first usage of superheroes in a gritty, noir setting. It showed superheroes that didn't spew lame one-liners, and didn't pose with their hands on their hips on top of a building, as their capes blew backwards. I really liked this series.
: Those two works specifically began, or at least crystalized, the potential of the medium, not just for obscure publishers and storys like MAUS, but for "mainstream" companies to publish work that could begin to be considered high art.
Yeah, up until the mid-eighties or so, comics were still regarded as something for teenagers. Maybe Miller's early 80s Daredevil started it though. These two series made it acceptable for young adults to enjoy comics. Any one of your friends who makes fun of you for reading comics-- the first thing you do, is hand them two TPBs; DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and WATCHMEN. You'll then find them becoming a bigger fan of the medium than even you are. The dark, cinematic style of storytelling is one that I love, and there's no question that work like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing lit the fuse that would become comic books like the ones found in the Vertigo line.
: Without both WATCHMEN and DARK KNIGHT, precisely NONE of the work you cite after them would have been possible. I don't think any of the creators of the work, Bendis, Ennis, whoever, would disagree.
Many writers today do use many of the same tactics, and no doubt derived the basis of their work from the forefathers of the format, like Moore, Miller, Gaiman, and so forth. Ellis, Ennis, Bendis, Azzarello, Rucka, Jenkins(in some cases), and many more.
All-in-all, it was merely a case of miscommunication on our parts, which isn't shocking...